mmyxlt

说过许多“现代”的版本，让我们一起来回顾一下历史录音吧。论德奥作品，当然不能绕过富特文格勒。尽管对其演绎的布鲁克纳的推崇，肯定没有他演绎的贝多芬或勃拉姆斯多。除却精神性因素，老富最擅长的是自由速度，布鲁克纳可供富氏玩味的因素不如贝多芬多。他演绎的布鲁克纳风格上稍为老派些，所谓老派，即速度较快，节奏紧凑，结构严密，较为刚劲、洗炼，不若后来者较注重展现布鲁克纳的宗教感，速度放慢，较松弛，也较铺张繁复。富特文格勒的“布八”第二乐章速度节拍都较奇怪，一时使人难以接受。第三乐章速度不慢，却极有内涵，宽厚、温暖，充满人性和恕道精神，真正的富氏风格得到了淋漓尽致的体现，是一不可或缺的文本。

mmyxlt

克纳佩兹布什被称作“慢板指挥家”，风格厚重，强力具权威感，尤其对大型结构，具长线条旋律的作品最为擅长。但他的指挥手法并不固定，状态也不稳定，所以演绎水平相差很大，而且可能由于性格关系。他的指挥有时主观即兴性太强，让人莫名其妙的忽重忽轻，骤快骤慢，还会有玩笑般的动作。一些讲求精神性的作品演起来偶有轻佻和油滑，不够严肃。布鲁克纳他录音数次，爱乐者更要细心挑选，谨慎为上。

阿本德洛特为德国老一代指挥，与富氏同辈，地位也不遑多让。只是战后留在东德，一则政治环境封闭，二则大师已于五十年代亡故，所以一直到最近几年才又被重新发掘。他的贝多芬、勃拉姆斯和布鲁克纳皆为上乘之作。他的“布八”厚重、坚刚、雄伟、充满日耳曼式的意志力，非常男性化，不过第三乐章倒是偏慢，与同时代的老派指挥家并不一样。

在老一辈德国指挥家中，舒里希特一直居于二流地位，他是最早推举布鲁克纳的指挥家之一，也被称作“专家”、“权威”。但我听其演绎（EMI），总觉得速度太快、太赶，没有意向可供探讨，没有内涵可供发掘，没有意蕴可供回味。更令人难以接受的是，维也纳爱乐到了他手上，变得粗鄙不堪，音色干硬单薄，象乡村乐队，弦乐全无“丝绸质感”，实不知何解。恕我耳拙，听不出好在哪里。我觉得舒里希特对布鲁克纳的演绎是完全为后世超越了的，不知是否不敬？因我听他的贝多芬、舒曼等德奥作品也大多如此。

指挥家中尚有沙巴塔、戈达尔、马泽尔、巴比罗利、库布利克、贾维、祖伊特纳、罗格纳、科林·戴维斯、罗杰斯特文斯基、梅塔、穆拉文斯基等等都演绎过布鲁克纳，但都因水平或种族地域文化等原因未臻一流水平。而马塔齐格、布隆斯泰德、巴伦波伊姆以及评价很高的丁特纳的版本皆未有幸聆听，而象海庭克、阿巴多、夏伊、威瑟·穆斯特这些尚健在、尚年轻的指挥家尚可再期待，所以暂不作评论。

我所希望的，是布鲁克纳乃至整个德奥系至整个古典音乐的精神不灭，文脉不断，世代香火不绝。因为古典音乐并不只属于西方而属于全人类。而何时，我们中国的指挥家和乐团才有如此魄力和素养，在这块有五千年悠久历史文化的土地上精彩地演绎出布鲁克纳之声呢？

祗园主人

宁波的乐友很多啊
bachdz很细心的，唱片外面包了一层塑料薄膜，又套了三层报纸，再装在硬纸盒里，保护的非常周到

祗园主人

其实论坛里很多DX比我更懂BRUCKNER的，呵呵，我只说说我的看法。个人认为在BRUCKNER最后三部交响曲里，成就最高的是NO8，接着是NO9，然后是第七。第九的很多部分里（第一乐章和第三乐章中）是能找到前两首交响曲的影子的，最直观的表述就是“似曾相识”。
    按照一般资料的介绍，NO8是继第七交响曲的巨大成功之后完成的，但是它的命运并非一帆风顺（BRUCKNER的作品差不多都是如此），在多方的“善意”劝解下，BRUCKNER对总谱进行多次改编，还有一些人也对他的作品进行了编订，今天流传的就有原始版、哈斯版、诺瓦克版，这张FURT的采用了哈斯版，切利比达奇（EMI）采用的是诺瓦克版。因为末乐章有”宇宙末日之景象“一说，所以这部交响曲又被称之为“启示”交响曲。
NO8就长度而言是后三部里最长的，集中了BRUCKNER作品的所有优点。第一乐章整体风格是比较阴冷晦暗的走向，一般演奏起来辉煌灿烂的铜管在这里显得非常森冷刺骨，这里有三处值得留意：首先是大提琴演奏的第一主题（铜管缓缓的间断跟随）出现后，铜管伴随定音鼓强劲的回应立时营造出一个巨大的沟壑样的音响深渊，好象两种事物被分隔在遥远的两端，中间充塞着朦胧的迷雾。这段音乐的变形在后面不时的出现，而接下来一段乐思又预示了首乐章结尾处的高潮，当初我就是被这样带进这首巨大的交响曲。接着是靠近中部的一段小提琴声部的独奏，很轻很轻，象是人的低语，更显的静谧，这给冷冽的气氛带来一丝温和平静。这里带有冥想味道的音乐吸引人凝神静听，美极了。最后是临近结尾，在铜管的引领下弦乐组逐渐加快加紧迈向高潮，巨大的铜管向两边扩展延伸，有一个明显的“探底”的感觉，定音鼓在后方强力的敲击，好象是四周的一切猛然崩塌一般的灾难，又有被打下十八层地狱的感觉，总之是一种宗教殉难式的完结，没有悲剧性和痛苦。第二乐章是谐谑曲，我觉得BRUCKNER的谐谑曲有一种笨拙而又朴实的美，音响仍然是浑厚的，但自然不做作。这个乐章的色彩较为明亮。第三乐章是慢板，这是巨大的交响曲中一个巨大的乐章，精华之中的精华，同时也是一个很美的乐章，动用了竖琴。那个主题美的带点颓废，又有些无奈，在几次反复之后，依然是在铜管中攀上高峰，但是都不是很激烈，好象默默的离去。这是一个人人听了都会喜欢甚至感动感悟的乐章，但在BRUCKNER的音乐中似乎是个异类，毕竟风格比较世俗，我听起来还有点情欲（但不俗）的调子，可能是误读吧，但我喜欢这样理解。最后一个乐章是在管乐齐鸣中开始的，可以理解为“宇宙间的声音”，是辉煌灿烂的风格，但接着BRUCKNER笔锋一转，音乐又变成舒缓的冥想，但是音乐的广度并没有消失，定音鼓依然在铜管中敲出沉重的节奏，象是在警示。中部的一个主题在不经意之间以并不强烈的铜管攀升到了穹顶，这只是一个短暂的瞬间，但是在听切利时，此处几乎令我流泪，不是哀伤，完全是为带着肃穆的圣洁所感动。当然这个乐章最后是在辉煌壮丽中结束的，铜管依然在其中起了龙骨的作用。全曲结束，用心聆听的人会觉得身心疲惫，但又好似获得新生，这是BRUCKNER的力量，或者说是信仰之力。
总结一下：我认为BRUCKNER作品的特点是1、宗教感，神秘庄严宽广（无限的空间感）；2、动静交错，旋律优美超出一般概念；3、纯真朴素自然，有什么就表达什么，不故弄玄虚；4、铜管部作用突出；5、适合静心心定反复聆听体验。
我的讲解只能到这了。乐理分析我是外行，医学生你是会演奏的吧，读BRUCKNER的交响曲总谱或者实际参加演奏应该更能体会到BRUCKNER的伟大

祗园主人

约胡姆那张东京现场，我有张DVD，演绎的确是厚重平和一路的，和旺德相近，算是典型“德奥风”。听切利的BRUCKNER并不觉得他速度慢，反而再听别人的演绎时觉得别人的速度都是快了。朱里尼的第八没有听过，但他的第九是上佳之作，尤其对旋律的表现突出，而且对合奏的处理非常有层次。

蚊子

下定了决心去买切利比达奇的布8（钱啊钱）
但是我旁边的书店居然把EMI的全部唱片都卸架了
难以理解
遗憾

蚊子

卡拉杨的布8倒是有得卖，但是对卡的风格优点腻味

另外：从唱片版本推荐的书上看来海廷克的版本似乎也挺受推崇，各位DX觉得如何

医学生

恭喜邸园主人购得心爱之物。
能否详细介绍一下bruckner no.8这个作品？
报纸版的贝六好像北京音像店里就有卖，和军医前辈说的一样吗？改天去收一张：）

Viking

富特万格勒的布鲁克纳我只买到了第九，1944年10月7日的柏林现场录音（Music & Arts CD-730），真是震撼人心同于大化的演出，这时候已经是二战末期了，对于当时的人来说，贝多芬、布鲁克纳……自然代表了一种复杂的感受和体认。同一张唱片上的还收有瓦格纳特里斯坦和伊索尔德的前奏曲和死之歌，1942年的柏林现场。



不知道什么时候可以得到富特万格勒的其他布鲁克纳录音？！






富特万格勒的布鲁克纳录音

9th Symphony
•       Berlin Philharmonic, 1944/10/07, Music & Arts CD730; ; DG 445 4182

8th Symphony
•       Vienna Philharmonic,1944/10/17, Japanese EMI CE285757/58; Music & Arts CD 764 [sharp; w/flutter]; DG 431878 [Japanese CD sharp; w/flutter]
•       Berlin Philharmonic,1949/03/15,Music & Arts CD624; Seven Seas KICC 2352*
•       Berlin Philharmonic, 1949/03/14, Toshiba TOCE 8514; Limited Edition SH 854
•       (Schalk Ed), Vienna Philharmonic, 1954/04/10; Hunt CDWFE 355; Fonit Cetra FE 17 [LP]
*The Bruckner 8th issued by "Originals" is the Oct 17, 1944 performance. It contains the characteristic drop in pitch in the first movement. They mistakenly(?) listed it as the March 1949 performance. The disk is filtered to the extreme and as such lacks some depth present in other Furtwaengler performances I have in the same period on M&A.
Craig Mirate
"Four recordings of Furtwaengler conducting Bruckner&#39s Eighth exist (though the last one, captured on 10 April 1954 with the VPO in the Musikvereinsaal, is of doubtful authenticity). The two recordings with the Berlin Philharmonic were made on successive evenings, 14 and 15 March 1949 in the Gemeindehaus Berlin-Dahlem and the Titania Palast respectively. (Which one has Originals issued?) As fine as both of these performances are, neither in my opinion equals the war-time account with the Vienna Philharmonic from 17 October 1944. The venue is the Musikvereinsaal and the version is by Furtwaengler, based on Haas and earlier adaptations."
Herny Fogel writes:
I agree that the 1944 Bruckner 8th is the best of Furtwängler&#39s performances of this piece to have been recorded. But the Music & Arts CD, and SOME DG versions, are in fact about a quarter-of-a-tone sharp, and have some flutter that is evident on sustained woodwind notes. The sharpness really affects the color of the orchestra and the whole sense of the span of the performance because of its slightly faster speed. The best transfer is a two-disc Japanese EMI CD version, but the recent DG Doubles set is also better than older DG versions and better than M&A&#39s version.
While we&#39re on FurtwänglerBruckner 8ths, let&#39s clarify some things about that 1954 performance. It is (as many other posters have noted) not the Nowak edition but the 1892 edition of the score. What I have confirmed definitively, from the library of the vienna Philharmonic, is that on April 10, 1954, Furtwänglerdid perform the Bruckner 8th, and did, in fact, use the 1892 scorce, not the Haas version he had used earlier. Given that we now know that he did use that version on that date, and given that the performance recorded does have distinct Furtwänglerinterpretive touches throughout, I am certain it is genuine. However, it is the weakest, IMHO, of Furtwängler&#39s recorded Bruckner 8ths -- lacking firmness of line and pulse, and lacking intensity.
And more ...
The doubts were, as Tony Movshon said, because this performance used the 1892 score, not the Haas version which (in a modified form) Furtwänglergenerally used. There was a second reason for the doubts, which is that this is not the strongest Furtwänglerperformance. Yes, it does have the general characteristics of his tempi, phrasing, and dynamics in this piece, but in fact it doesn&#39t have the power and intensity of his other recorded performances. Given that fact, and the fact that it used a version that Furtwänglerdid not normally use, many people (including myself when it first came out) thought it was not authentic. However, it is now believed by virtually everyone to be authentic. I determined, from the archivist of the Vienna Philharmonic, that in his 1954 performances Furtwänglerdid, in fact, use the 1892 score, and not the Haas Edition. This is a matter of record with the VPO. Once we ascertained that fact, we were willing to accept this as a legitimate Furtwänglerperformance, though not one of his best.

7th Symphony
•       Berlin Philharmonic; Gemeindehaus Dahlem, Berlin; 1949/10/18; Toshiba TOCE 8513
•       Berlin Philharmonic; Rome; 1951/05/01; Arkadia, CDWFE 362.1; Fonit Cetra FE 42; Music & Arts CD 698
•       Berlin Philharmonic; Cairo, Egypt; 1951/04/23; DG 445 418-2;
•       Berlin Philharmonic; Berlin; 1942/04/07; Tahra FURT 1004/7 Teldec 9031764352 (Adagio only)
"This particular performance was issued on LP by EMI in many editions (Electrola&#39s being one of them), it is from October 18, 1949. As far as I know, its only CD release is a Japanese Toshiba edition (that&#39s a Japanese EMI-related company) which is very good in quality. I really like this performance and think it is probably the best Bruckner 7th with Furtwängler."
"DGG has a 1951 tour performance with the BPO from Cairo, which I find just a bit less taut (where tension is needed), and a few labels have released another performance from that same 1951 tour from a week later in Rome (Arkadia, FOnit Cetra and Music and Arts have all released that one). That one is a bit more inspired, in my view, than Cairo but I think you&#39ve got the best of them all."
"There is also more than one 1950&#39s recording with WF, btw. There is a studio recording with the Vienna PO (no cat number yet) on EMI, a live performance (4/14/53) with the Berlin PO on DG, and an Orfeo disc, apparently. I know the EMI and DG recordings, and prefer the DG performance. It has all those intangible qualities that separate a WF live performance from a studio effort. The only reasons to more seriously consider the EMI recording are (a) better recorded sound (the DG is from a radio broadcast) and (b) coupling (the EMI disc has a respectable 5th; the DG is coupled with what strikes me as a mediocre, heavy-handed 8th)."

6th Symphony - last three movements only
•       Berlin Philharmonic; ? ; 1943/11/16; Music & Arts CD 805

5th Symphony
•       Vienna Philharmonic; Festspielhaus, Salzburg; 1951/08/19; EMI 565750 2; Seven Seas KICC 2116
•       Berlin Philharmonic; Philharmonie; 1942/10/28; DG 427 7742;
"This is also EMI(5 65750 2; and the box lists no US number,which might be ominous).This comes from the original Austrian radiotapes, and is a vast improvement over the M&A and other issues that were taken from off-the-air copies of the broadcast.The sound is a bit too bright and hard, but far more listenable than prior versions. I would agree, however, with Dr. Liu, that this performance, even when heard in its better sonic state, does not measure up to the 1942 Wartime one issued by DG (427 774), though that is hard to find these days."
"There is an intensity and consistent forward motion to the 1942 BPO version that is not quite equalled here. This Bruckner Fifth seems a bit soft-grained incomparison, though the slow movement is lovely to be sure. I can stil lrecommend it if you cannot find the 1942 performance, but if you have the &#3942, this would be something to be owned only by those of us who admit to being "completists" when it comes to this conductor Schubert Symphony #9; Berlin PO (I guess the EMI set is the one out, though someone mentioned the Jesus-Christus-Kirche studio performance being out again on DG)."

Fourth Symphony (Schalk/Loewe Ed)
•       Vienna Philharmonic; Deutsches Museum, Munich; 1951/10/29; Music & Arts CD796
•       Vienna Philharmonic; Stuttgart; 1951/10/22; DG 427 4032 (better sound than 10/29 perf from Munich); DG 415 6642 [flutter on this version]
Both performances are taken from the same tour of the Vienna Philharmonic under Furtwängler; the DG performance is taken from October 22, 1951, in Stuttgart; the Music & Arts performance (CD-796) is from a week later, October 29, in Munich. The two performances are, as you might expect, similar, but the sound on the DG is much better. HOWEVER, it is important to have the right DG pressing. 427 503-2 is quite wonderful; 415 664-2 has some rather serious flutter that is quite annoying on sustained woodwind notes. I have not heard 445 415-2, nor the Japanese DG POCG 9499. Despite their similarity in interpretive approach and general outline, I feel that the Munich performance (Music & Arts) has a bit more intensity, a bit more hushed beauty and mystery in the slow movement, and seems a bit more improvisatory. The differences are not significant, but they are present. Unfortunately, of couse, if you can find the right DG pressing, the sound is markedly better (this is not Music & Arts&#39 fault; the differences are on the original recordings; Music & Arts has actually done a good job with this release, and I find it preferable to earlier releases of the same performance). The M&A is constricted, with less recorded at the high and low ends of the frequency spectrum than on the DG version.
"Furtwaengler conducted Bruckner&#39s final version from 1888, published in 1889. I also have concerns about the 1888 version of the Fourth, especially the cut in the reprise of the Scherzo, which Furtwaengler ignored in his 1951 performances. Nevertheless, I would suggest that this edition should stand next to the Haas and Nowak editions with equal justification."

Viking

Schricht的布鲁克纳没有听过，是不是真的一般？他的勃拉姆斯我还挺喜欢。除了众所周知的大公司名版以外，我认为，Abendroth（Berlin Classics）、朝比奈隆、Tintner（NAXOS）、斯克洛瓦杰夫斯基（ARTE NOVA，RR）、Suitner（Deutsche Schallplatten）的布鲁克纳确实是不可或缺的。稍后一代的指挥家里，阿巴多的布鲁克纳我比较喜欢，不太习惯的是哈农库特的，我还是喜欢听哈农库特的巴赫、海顿和莫扎特。总的来说，听布鲁克纳，还是喜欢老一代的指挥家多一些，那种神性的气息和安详的虔诚，在他们的棒下表达到了极致。德奥的音乐、理性、宗教传统和德奥的指挥传统在布鲁克纳作品的演绎上真的是达到了水乳交融的地步。

蚊子

把各位的帖子全部打印出来，足足有14页！
看了几遍，真是精彩。
今天特意冲了泡好普洱，点上根雪茄，静静地听了遍，还是没品出味道。

小白

在现在这种快节奏的社会里，有耐心和闲情静下心来听布鲁克纳的，真是罕见的人哪！我也只是在刚开始工作的那段日子，单身汉的时代，才有那样的luxury of time来欣赏布鲁克纳，后来就再也不行了！

F15

俺认为布鲁克纳6最合心意。;)

祗园主人

最初由 蚊子 发表
[B]把各位的帖子全部打印出来，足足有14页！
看了几遍，真是精彩。
今天特意冲了泡好普洱，点上根雪茄，静静地听了遍，还是没品出味道。 [/B]

听的是索尔第吗？他恐怕还搞不好布八这样的曲目;)

蚊子

没错，是索尔第。不知为什么他的名字前面总要加个“sir”。
淡得跟白开水似的，由于没有比较，都不知道是指挥的问题还是乐曲本身如此。
今天翻到了一张富特文格勒的布鲁克纳第6的片断（爱乐杂志送的历史录音精选），感觉这个慢乐章倒确实挺感人。